New SR-7B Memorabilia Trading Policy
Posted in SR-7B Lodges by John E. Pannell on April 30th, 2007 at 12:57 am This letter, printed in its entirety below, from the Section adviser was a result of a meeting between him and some concerned collectors, and input from the section’s Council of Chiefs. It was distributed as part of the Sunday morning newsletter at the SR-7B conclave
As I was only at the conclave on Saturday, I did not know of this letter until Sunday, April 29th.
Brothers,
Patch trading is a long-standing tradition in the Order of the Arrow and the Boy Scouts of America. As a Section we are saddened that abuses are occurring that threaten this tradition.
Effective with next year’s Conclave hosted by Klahican Lodge at Camp Bowers new patch trading policies will be implemented. Strict adherence to these policies will be expected. No private issue or “spoof†patches will be permitted for trade or sale at Conclave. Violation of this restriction will result in expulsion from the Conclave. We hope that no further restrictions will be necessary, but in the event we continue to have problems with adults taking advantage of youth in patch trading at Conclave, we will resort to the National Jamboree restrictions of youth to youth and adult-to-adult trading only. I’m sure we can count on your cooperation.
The Section is inviting a number of experienced and ethical traders to serve on a committee to advise the Section on these regulations and to provide supervision over patch trading around the conclave to make sure that these policies are being followed and that youth are being treated fairly. Patch trading is supposed to be both fair and fun. Let’s work together to make it so.
Yours in Service,
J. Corpening, Section Adviser
Ted Williams, Section Staff Adviser
This is short and clear; gets to the point; and is just about everything several concerned collectors have been asking for since at least the 2006 SR-7B Conclave. Messrs Corpening and Williams, the section’s CoC and several others should be commended for their efforts.
We should remember, thought, that a policy is only as strong as its enforcement. I hope whoever is in charge of the trading at Conclave 2008 has the ability, means and desire to enforce this rule. Unfortunately, I’m more than bit skeptical that will be will done. We’ll see.
This does leave a few issues unaddressed, revolving around why spoofs and private issues are made to beging with but they’re largely beyond the ability of a section’s leadership to deal with. That would get into matters that are not the purview of a O.A. section.
The letter also contains a statement that is not accurate, in my opnion. I’ll leave it to the reader to see if he can catch what I see here.
Interesting post John so I figured I’d comment. I’ve started reading your blog and have enjoyed it, and you’re doing a great job with it. I was at the CoC on Saturday night at Conclave and observed the proceedings. I’m serving as the Section Secretary Adviser now so I went to the CoC. Discussion was made from the meeting and patch traders. The youth members of the CoC voted and passed the motion so J. and Ted issued the letter above. There wasn’t much discussion about it. I think the key as you mentioned is enforcement.
Making policies is within the Section’s call of duty. I feel like the driving factor is definately on, the desire to protect the youth. Below is a line from his letter that explains the enforcement. The Section will form a Committee to advise and enforce. I do not know the make up of the committee and who’s on it. The Section officers and advisers do not have the breadth of knowledge or the time at Conclave to enforce the policy.
My cite didn’t work. I guess I got the code wrong. Below is the text I was trying to cite:
The Section is inviting a number of experienced and ethical traders to serve on a committee to advise the Section on these regulations and to provide supervision over patch trading around the conclave to make sure that these policies are being followed and that youth are being treated fairly.
Forgive me for being more than a little cynical, but “I’ll believe it when I see it.” Making rules is one thing, enforcing them is something else entirely. I submit the 40,000 guns laws that already exist, but are rarely enforced (reference Virginia Tech).
This being said, this letter gives me a new reason to finally take “The One True Fake” on a Pilgrimage, if only to see if You Know Who will actually 1) not make any of his crap, and 2) if You Know Who will actually be removed from the scene if he (or any of his “partners in slime”) are actually caught peddling any of his crap.
Regardless, I would be very interested to see the list of names of who are considered to be the “experienced and ethical traders.” The names on that list will speak volumes as to the seriousness of the Section to clamp down.
Great. Now I have to explain to folks what the “One True Fake” is.
I know who that group of traders would likely include… Good folks all.
Enforcement will be the key.
I have several problems with this. (rant coming)
Not every youth or adult cares THIS much about patches. Some people just like to trade and really do not care what they get in return as long as they like what they receive in return. It may not seem right to the patch collectors to trade a difficult or rare patch for a virtually common or even a fake one but who said the hardcore patch trader’s point of view is the only one that should be accepted. Not every trade needs to be value for value. Honestly, sit down and think how unrealistic that is.
Spooks, fakes, unauthorized patches…Just think how many were adopted by lodges in the end. This article is totally black and white. It does nothing to address all the current spoofs or fakes already out there. Believe it or not several people do not know the real thing from the fake thing. It is because most do not care and that isn’t necessarily a bad thing. Yeah, it is true that most fakes and spoofs are likely made by adults because they are the ones with money to do it but that does not mean they use them to cheat youth or other adult members out of rare patches. What kind of ridiculous assumption is that? I see no basis for claim on that. Some give them away out of friendship. Some give them to everyone who traded with them as an extra token of appreciation.
Kids are not stupid. Most know a spoof once they seen one. Take the Burger King flap out there made a few years ago. I doubt seriously, anyone believe there is a lodge named Burger King. Why fear that the adults are taking advantage of the youth? Well, the youth out number the adults at these events and while it is possible that there maybe a twisted adult or two the youth far out number the adults. Yeah, thats right. Anyone who as simply stepped back and watched trading for a hour or two will understand that some kids are just as greedy and exploitive as any twisted adult out there. I see them put their junk and stuff out on their table for trade while hording their good stuff in backpack only to take it out if absolutely necessarily to acquire something they wanted or needed.
You know what that is really about MONEY. Yeah, its not about protecting youth so much as protecting their $money$. I worked at the SR-6N section conclave on the trading post and the markup on a lot of stuff was seemed nuts to me. There were all kinds of section conclave material bought and sold but the biggest sellers are patches. There were so many different conclave event patches it is mind boggling. After I helped the section sale a yellow border participant for $6 each 1 per person who attended until they were gone. In the end, not everyone got one that wanted one. I asked the trading post adviser why the prices were marked up so much and he said that the section chief and/or committee, I think, decided on that price. For a patch that probably did not cost more than $1 to make I wondered why such a high mark up and was told that is one of the way that the section raised money for conclaves like this one. So, is stopping the sale of spoofs and fakes really to protect traders…maybe…maybe not.
Forgive me if I chuckle at the thought of an ethical committee of patch traders. What is ethical patch trading? Right…Wrong…they are determined by the majority and not by a small and select group of patch traders. There are very, very, very few patch traders who care more about giving patches to another versus what they got in return. In my short 13 years of collecting I can not even count on one hand to five the number of people who fit that description.
In the end, the only statement truly worth looking at is “Patch trading is supposed to be both fair and fun.” You can’t dictate what is fun and fair in patch trading. You can’t create limits and patch police officers and state this will help make patch trading fun and fair. What makes patch trading fun and fair is the same thing that has always made patch trading fun & fair……”ONE THING FOR ANOTHER”
Well here comes my 2-cents worth…..
Having been at last years SR-7B conclave where the problem originally occured, and having been at this years concalve as Co-Trading Post Advisor, and having been in on the discussion with our Section Advisors, I think I’m fairly well qualified to comment here.
When Section originally handed down the decision in October 2006 to have only youth-youth and adult-adult trading at this years conclave, I was bombarded with comments which were delivered back to the Section Advisors. They did recind their original decision, but inidcated we needed to talk to find a solution. I was asked to sit in on this discussion at this years event so that the CoC could be made aware of the forth coming policy to follow next year. If anyone had been to this years conclave to see what was going on, you would have really been surprised at the number of non-official patches offered for trade by adults.
Education is a key in our hobby. Some youth are totally innocent knowing what they have or in this case, do not have. Adults are using these spoofs and private issues to “gain” as they take their official issues home that were traded with spoof patchs and then they and sell them for profit. Profit is the main reason these patches are made by individuals.
Yes, the Section and Lodges like to make profits too, but for a different reason. Their profits are generally for the youth and not to enhance the pocketbook of individuals. At least they are offering official issues.
With this decision the Seciton has made, it is the ethical traders that will be policing the events. Many will be asked to share in the responsibility. If a youth is found to be trading or offering spoofs or private issues for trade, they will be educated first on what they have and then asked to put them away as they are not to be traded at the conclave. If they are found in violation a second time, then yes they will be escourted from the event by conclave security. Adults will be given the same consideration but every adult knows what they are doing.
I am sure there will be someone that will just try to test the system and it is my sincere hope that they are ejected from the event. Why do scouters feel this need to defy rules handed down to us? I guess they are not true scouts living by the scout oath & law….as an Eagle scout my-self I made a pledge back in 1973 to uphold the oath and law. I wish others could do the same.
Greg,
That makes absolutely no sense to me. To me this sounds like lodges are upset that people are making larger profits off their patches than the lodges themselves by reselling patches on sites like Ebay. That has been going for as long as I can remember…spoof or no spoof involved. All this would do is cut one branch off the tree virtually causing no impact on patches being acquired for resale. It has absolutely nothing to do with patch trading. This means concerned adults are placing greater value on their own lodge’s material versus that of a spoof maker or other garbage patches. Patch trading is “one thing for another”. Why on earth does it necessarily need to be restricted to OA only or BSA only patches that are officially made councils and lodges?
I was never very good in math, but the patches these “spoof makers” are trading for must have been originally purchased by someone through the lodge’s trading post. Now, that being mostly true… Does not the fact that youth buy more and more patches to trade for these spoofs help the lodge versus actually hurting the lodge? What happens when youth starting purchasing less patches because patch trading has become less exciting by only seeing the same patches year in and year out? If everyone has the same patches to trade…does not the hobby become stale regardless of the origin of a patch? What motivation is there to buy several of the same patch if everyone around already has it.
If you ask me lodges have been making a killing of these spoof traders without even thinking about it. I will be honest with everyone. I have “ZERO” problems with people trading fakes, private issues, spoofs with other people as long as they inform who they are trading with about the history of the patch.
Before this section goes killing a potential source of funds they might want to think a little harder about it. If folks are that tired of others profiting off their patches then perhaps the lodge should consider selling a percentage of their new patches online taking away the desire for these spoof traders to make a profit. Cutting out the middle man if you will.
There are plenty nice looking patches that are worthless junk that are not spoofs. If you ban spoofs all these shifty folks will do is by nice looking cheap patches from other lodges for these same desirable lodge patches that you are trading to protect.
I promise if you do this you will only create a smarter and more shifty patch trader.
[...] In his comments to an earlier post on this blog Bob Ross writes: …This being said, this letter gives me a new reason to finally take “The One True Fake†on a Pilgrimage… [...]